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posted by [personal profile] annerb at 01:48pm on 05/06/2007 under
I was skimming [community profile] metafandom, as I am wont to do sometimes, looking for something that was not about strikethrough '07 or whatever silly name they have for general wankopolpsery, and stumbled upon and interesting little ditty about Buffyverse and Angst (two of my favorite things!) by [profile] luciademedici.  Besides finding great comfort in knowing that someone else loves to reduce themselves to tears with the season two finale, I found it an interesting claim that angst has a bad wrap.  As a minion and instigator of angst myself, perhaps I have simply been kindly isolated from this abhorrence of angst (or maybe Stargate fans are made of sterner stuff. ;)  But the explanation for why certain people feel the need to hate and/or avoid certain genres/pairings/yada yada is getting really old.  "There is so much crap out there that readers never get past the first inevitable eye-sporkingly bad fics."  Maybe true, but I have seen this used to explain any and all negative reputations earned by any sub catagory.  I refuse to believe that writing good fluff or humor is any less difficult than writing good angst.  And as for pairings, sure by sheer numbers there is a lot more Sam/Jack and Jack/Daniel stuff out there than anything else, but pure percentage-wise?  I'd hazard there is the same good to not-so-good ratio of fic in any category be it Sam/Cam or Lorne/Giant Squid.  There are two things to be learned here: 1) There is a lot of crap in ALL types and finding good fic is difficult in all of them, but no where near impossible.  Have a stout heart, roll your sleeves up, and dig in.  2) People are dumb.  There, I said it.  And I do include myself in people, so don't get too freaked out yet.  My point: People will hate things.  People will draw conclusions based on small samples of data (it's called stereotyping and also sometimes 'polling').  Some people will even go out of their way to shriek these conclusions from the top of the nearest comm as much as they can.  You hate angst?  Big deal.  It's your right.  Never going to read any of my fics because I have a 'rep' for angst?  I don't care.  And neither should you.  If you are gunning for universal likeability and approval, in fandom or elsewhere, you're going to discover long, drawn out disappointment (one might even say angst :p).

This all just boils down to one more type of wankery.  Blindly hating anything or getting pissed off that people blindly hate something are really two sides of the same coin.  Because maybe people like to be stereotyped to some degree, it makes us vs. them, and isn't it ever so pleasant to be "us" ?  If you think I'm being unfair to the beleaguered 'us' who are disparaged by 'them', just look how little time it takes for a defense of angst (genre/pairing/yada yada) to turn into a put down fest on whatever is considered to be the opposite camp.  "Who the hell would want to read fluff anyway?"  "Only people with no imagination/wit/sanity would prefer fill-in-the-blank."  Ah.  Community through wankery.  Fandom is such an amazing microcosm of the real world sometimes, isn't it?

And no matter how appealing it is to think "Oh!  I'm so persecuted and misunderstood!  And it's because Angst is ever so much harder to write," I know that is just my own dumb side speaking and I am deciding to ignore it out of respect for my flist, who is in no way from one camp or mindset (thank the gods), and out of respect for myself. To be honest, right now neither 'us' nor 'them' is looking rather appealing.  I think I'll stick to 'me'.

ETA: And don't forget to read the greatest Lorne/Giant Squid comment fic OF ALL TIME.
Mood:: 'wank_proof' wank_proof
There are 31 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
ext_3314: Woman writing (Apocalypse now?)
posted by [identity profile] pepper-field.livejournal.com at 09:49pm on 05/06/2007
*waves banners and pompoms and generally cheerleaders you on* You said it. And very well too. Yeesh, people are actually warring about what genre is better? I'm glad I've missed this.

Sod the idea that angst or fluff or any damn thing is extra-specially hard to write. Good fic is hard to write (and to find). But, like you say, it's out there, if you've got boots, a good shovel, and a strong stomach. Or a wonderful flist where there's always someone who's posted something wonderful, no matter what genre, w00t! *g*
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 11:52pm on 05/06/2007
Well, it's not like some huge explosion of genre war just happened, more like I finally gained some clarity the millionth time I read something about it. :) Plus, ease of genre has nothing to do with the subject and everything to do with the writer. I mean, I sweat angst without thinking. It's fluff and humor that I find impossibly difficult to write. But that is just me. All these generalizations make me want to...well, I was going to say something suitably angry, but in truth, whenever I get this wound up, I just inevitably write crack fic. Hmmm...
 
posted by [identity profile] lorettakay.livejournal.com at 10:31pm on 05/06/2007
In the words of K from MIB "A person is smart. People are dumb"

Amen to your very true words.

I have my squicks, but if a fic is done right, I'll read it despite'em.

(though I'll admit to being a little snobbish with my reading lately)
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 11:55pm on 05/06/2007
"A person is smart. People are dumb"

Amen to that. Quite a common sentiment from me. I just usually use less genteel words. :P

Snob away, it's your right. Especially since you just read what you want and don't start a fandom war when you stumble upon something you don't like. Lol.

(Using my Sara Sidle icon as I am watching CSI as I type. Cool! They are shooting dummies as part of an experiment! )
 
posted by [identity profile] lorettakay.livejournal.com at 12:17am on 06/06/2007
My normal statement is "I hate people," but I usually save that for people who cut me off in traffic. Can I start a war about people who don't know how to drive? Cause that's something I can get behind. People who write Jack/Thor? Don't give a flying flip about. (and would probably read for the kicks and giggles) People who can't merge? Now there's a topic that'll piss me off.

(I love when they do experiments. I think that's my favorite part of Bones [I don't watch CSI] And one of the main reasons I completely adore Myth Busters!)
ext_1012: (rodney-cooler than the tardis)
posted by [identity profile] stargazercmc.livejournal.com at 10:37pm on 05/06/2007
Rodney walked out to the platform and found Lorne with his easel.

"Painting again," Rodney said. "Where do you get all of this free time?"

Lorne looked back over his shoulder. "I make the time, McKay." He dabbed a spot of white into a blue wave on the canvas. "This where I feel most whole, especially since..."

Lorne turned back towards his canvas, his eyes shining.

"Would you get over it, already?" Rodney rolled his eyes. "How was I supposed to know that you named the damned squid?" Mumbling about sushi rolls, Rodney turned around and headed back inside.
ext_2207: (SGA - Rodney breaks science)
posted by [identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com at 11:14pm on 05/06/2007
hee!

that rocks :)
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 11:36pm on 05/06/2007
Well, there went my theory. 100% of all Lorne/Giant Squid fic is now fantastic! :P

I still can't get over Lorne painting. Lol.
ext_1012: (ruinin' ur squee)
posted by [identity profile] stargazercmc.livejournal.com at 01:09am on 06/06/2007
i'm up in ur meta, ruinin' ur squidfic theory!

(He strikes me as a watercolor bloke, dontcha think?)
 
posted by [identity profile] moonshayde.livejournal.com at 10:38pm on 05/06/2007
You persecute me in your wankering of angst and your people hate!
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 11:47pm on 05/06/2007
Congratulations! Don't you feel empowered now? ;)
ext_18106: (Kitty PSYCH)
posted by [identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com at 11:05pm on 05/06/2007
Or, as we used to say in 1999...

"90% of everything is crap, so of COURSE there's large amounts of X-Men fic that's crap. This does not mean that non-X-fic isn't crap, it just means that it's harder to NOTICE because there's less of it to be crap. Ergo, shut the fuck up about there being too much X-fic and go make us a sandwich, boys."
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 11:37pm on 05/06/2007
The more WTFery changes, the more it stays the same? I should find that comforting and yet... :)
ext_18106: (Default)
posted by [identity profile] lyssie.livejournal.com at 11:53pm on 05/06/2007
That, and that, in the end, as Sturgeon's Law (iirc) states, 90% of everything is crap. It's just easier to tell when there's a larger amount of the whole.
ext_2207: (Fandom Harry)
posted by [identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com at 11:14pm on 05/06/2007
A-men!

Though, considering how much angst seems omnipresent in fandom, I'm surprised there are people railing against it.

One thing I love about fandom is that for every cliche/genre there is, there's always a few gems - whether it's baby!fic, aliens made them do it, death!fic, non-con, whatever - as much bad as there is, there's always someone who did it right.

I'm guessing with things like Jack/Daniel (using your example) maybe people say so much of it is crap because, well, if you have 10 J/D fics for every S/D fic, and for both genres 80% is crap, you have a lot more crappy J/D fics.

Or people just really like to complain. Cause, as Pepper said, good fic is hard. Period. And, as a new reader, sometimes it is hard to learn how to wade through the pond scum to find the gems, but you learn.
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 11:46pm on 05/06/2007
I have this modified quote from The American President running through my head now:

Fandom isn't easy. Fandom is advanced citizenship. You gotta want it bad, 'cause it's gonna put up a fight.

It's gonna say, "You want good fic? Let's see you wade through drivel and cliches that make you want to spork your eyes out to find it. You want to claim this land as the land of the fan? Then the definition of your fandom love can't just be the support of your little fannish corner; love also has to be one of its fangirls exercising her right to not read your fic in protest. Show me that, defend that, celebrate that in your comms.

Lol. Now I need to lie down. :)
ext_2207: (SG1 - team sets forth)
posted by [identity profile] abyssinia4077.livejournal.com at 12:20am on 06/06/2007
Hee :)
and this is one reason why you are awesome.
nomadicwriter: [Doctor Doom] Victor Von Crankypants (pet theory)
posted by [personal profile] nomadicwriter at 12:13am on 06/06/2007
I think what people actually hate is wangst. Of the "Daniel Jackson's big blue eyes were limpid pools and his bottom lip quivered as he slit his wrists, sobbing desperately, because his snugglebunny Jack sat next to Sam at the lunch table," variety. Bad melodramatic angst is pretty godawful - but then, of course, so is bad melodramatic anything.

It's the same idiot logic that brings us gems like, "the slash in this fandom is better written than the het," and, "the fic on livejournal is better than the stuff posted to fanfiction.net". People have a preference for genre X, so they get to know it well and cherry-pick the very best of the authors and recs lists to follow. Then, when they dip into genre Y, they don't know it half so well, so they get a random selection of fic that follows the 90% crap rule.

And then they drink a big glass of stupid and go on to compare their carefully filtered top 0.5% of one genre to their random picks from the other genre. And: "Hey, look! The quality of the writing in the genre I prefer is much better than this other stuff! Obviously, this is conclusive proof my genre is more awesome."

In conclusion, people = dumb.
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 04:53pm on 06/06/2007
Hey, different path, same conclusion! :)

In general, we have all become spoiled and want nothing but 100% awesomeness all the time. We can only dream of such a world.
ext_962: (jack thinks)
posted by [identity profile] surreallis.livejournal.com at 12:16am on 06/06/2007
*gazes fondly at you*

YES. Sort of like when people say "all the female characters are uninteresting" or "i don't like het because it's all sappy and mary-sue-ish" or even "i hate slash because it makes Daniel into a girl". The only way you'd say any of these things and believe them is if you haven't actually delved into the thing you're complaining about, and therefore you're taking one small sample and making it the norm. I SO hear you. That irritates me.

Metafandom is great for finding those 'us vs. them' pile-ons.
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 04:57pm on 06/06/2007
Oh yes, can't forget those gems of stereotyping. That's why holdouttrout's cliche lists and things like that are so cool, pointing out the gems of each genre/cliche/pairings/yada yada to let people get their feet wet with minimal sporkage.

Yeah, metafandom is great, and fandom craziness is just hilarious to watch, but sometimes enough is freaking enough. But maybe I am just extending my real world annoyances into fandom. (No, that was in no way a veiled reference to the American need to have a 'them' to hate at all times. *snerk*)
 
posted by [identity profile] http://users.livejournal.com/traycer_/ at 01:24am on 06/06/2007
Wankopop... wankaplop... wankopopsy??? Oh forget it!! lol I'm sure Sam Carter would have no trouble pronouncing the word, and would even know what it means!! As for me, I'll just pass on that one and move on to the ones I know. :)

I take it that there are people who don't like angst?? Oh man, say it isn't so!! I think that angst is what I do best, but like you, I'd rather worry about something more important than whether someone is going to like what I write.

As for stereotyping, there's a person out there who flat out said that any fic that has even a tiny bit of Sam/Jack ship is automatically a crappy fic, whether she tried to read it or not. You and I know that this isn't true, but for someone to spout off such prejudice thinking on a public forum still blows my mind!!

Sometimes we just have to back away.

 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 05:00pm on 06/06/2007
Hmmm...looking at it again, I am pretty sure I spelled it wrong anyway. Not that the hybrid of apocalypse and wankery really have an official spelling. Lol.

Unabashed hate for a pairing spouted in a public forum? You don't say? Those are the people who are either dumb, or feel the need to start wankery. Backing away is the best thing you could do (and quietly mock from a distance).
alexseanchai: Katsuki Yuuri wearing a blue jacket and his glasses and holding a poodle, in front of the asexual pride flag with a rainbow heart inset. (Default)
posted by [personal profile] alexseanchai at 03:47am on 16/06/2007
Wankapocalypse?

That took freaking forever to spell the way it sounds in my head...

Also, re post, you are so right.

([livejournal.com profile] metafandom flyby, hi)
 
posted by [identity profile] shutthef-up.livejournal.com at 03:15am on 06/06/2007
Meh, angst is a preference, no more than fluff or hurt/comfort. People who want to make a fuss about it are just looking to stir the pot.

Personally, I'm kind of allergic to fluff and *some* forms of h/c. Depends on how the h/c is handled.

While I'd love to get all wanky about how not enough people write fic to my liking, my time is better spent writing the fic I like best ;)

Now if LJ will let me post this...
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 05:01pm on 06/06/2007
While I'd love to get all wanky about how not enough people write fic to my liking, my time is better spent writing the fic I like best ;)

YES! Thank you. Best way to channel the energy, really. Everyone should shut up and write more fic. Lol.

LJ still being a total troll? I posted this long rant without really thinking about it. Hope it gets better soon!
 
posted by [identity profile] luciademedici.livejournal.com at 05:52pm on 14/06/2007
Besides finding great comfort in knowing that someone else loves to reduce themselves to tears with the season two finale, I found it an interesting claim that angst has a bad wrap.

No claims, only observations derived from a particular discussion with a particular individual, the details of which are not being released.

Thanks for the response, I'll pass this on to my flist and the folks you're paraphrasing. (At least, I think you're paraphrasing from the comments, because most of this I don't recognize from the post itself.)
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 06:04pm on 14/06/2007
Your observations were great and I found them very interesting, and pretty much true for my own experiences. And I wasn't paraphrasing anyone in particular, just being a hypocrite and stereotyping the typical response I have read in lots of different forums on different topics (pairings/genres/and everything in between). I want to thank you for your post, which got my own thoughts flowing, definitely fascinating. I should have commented on your original post (my bad), but I am glad you made your way here anyway.
 
posted by [identity profile] luciademedici.livejournal.com at 06:22pm on 14/06/2007
Cheers. I'm in the process of compiling a follow-up, since a lot of the discussions spawned from the original content seemed to indicate a connection with darkfic. (Obviously, small sample, right? Varied flist with varied responses, but a handful indicated there's an innate fear of one thing leading to the other - character death or general misery being the most frequent in the case of "angst", which I think, at least, is an interesting association that I wouldn't have necessarily made myself.)

ANYWAY. All this to say I think your take on fandom solidarity in terms of the way writers identify themselves is a perspective I hadn't considered, and also the note on the way a particular fandom breeds a particular type of writer (Stargate folks being made of stronger stuff, in your example.)

Good fodder for thought, that. So again, merci.
 
posted by [identity profile] cressida0201.livejournal.com at 04:39pm on 16/06/2007
(Comment cross-posted from [livejournal.com profile] luciademedici's post, as it applies to both discussions.)

Wow, did angst go out of fashion when I wasn't looking? I've never heard of a fandom that was actually down on it.

I mentally divide angst fic into "good angst" and "bad angst." I don't mean the quality of the writing here, but the quality of the angst itself. "Good angst," which I love reading, makes me come away from the story with increased respect for the angsting character and the burdens they're bearing. "Bad angst" makes me want to smack the character in question and shout, "Oh, get over it!" Maybe because wallowing in self-pity is something I used to indulge in rather a lot when I was younger, it now makes me shudder to see favorite characters whom I usually admire for their strength acting like that.
 
posted by [identity profile] annerbhp.livejournal.com at 05:17pm on 20/06/2007
I hear what you're saying. Angst can easily go the route of emo versions of the characters suffering a bit too much. I remember I got into a discussion with someone a long while ago about why anyone would be interested in reading whumping stories. They seemed to think reading a story with anyone getting tortured or raped or anything violent like that meant that the reader was a bit twisted or something. MY point was that it wasn't he violence that attracted me, but how these people dealt with the situations. Do they break? Do they rise above? I guess I think you can really get down to the true nature of humans and characters when you break them down. I find it interesting. But apparently it might be twisted as well.

Hmmm...got a bit off topic, haven't I? Lol. Sorry.

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