Leverage and Fanfic [annerb]

For anyone not reading the Kung Fu Monkey blog, you might be interested in this snippet from the latest post. A fan asked:

"@619: I personally HATE fanfic so I was wondering..... 1)How do YOU feel about fan fiction? 2)Does it irk you that so many people "borrow" your characters and use them in their own crappy stories? 3)Do you think of fanfic as a form of flattery? 4)Do the other writers and the actors feel the same way?"

John Rogers' answer is interesting, particularly since he has made little to no effort to hide his awareness of online fandom in general.

"1.) I think fanfic is the sign of a healthy show. Here's what it boils down to: you're telling me that in today's crowded media space, our show made someone love it so much they take time out of their own life to talk about it? Holy. Crap.

To be fair, I have a somewhat different attitude toward media/fans than most people. I think what TV/corporate media had wrong for a long time was how they understood the idea of a "water cooler show." They saw it as making the audience talk about their show, on their terms. So any fan-created media is them losing control of their material. I see this more as the natural evolution of culture in a shared digital age. I will be blunt -- other than the satisfaction of our own creative urges (and all that entails: the quest for perfection, artistry, craft, etc), our job in media is to give you stuff to talk about in your conversations, to integrate into your social circle in whatever way you see fit. I doubt that's TNT's official stance, btw, but they are much cooler about this stuff than most companies.

2.) As far as "borrowing" our characters -- to paraphrase Alan Moore, they didn't go anywhere. There they are, sitting right up on the shelf. Waiting for us to let them loose again. Besides, how many people read a fanfic story? A couple hundred, tops? We have, on average 3.5 million viewers, well into the 4 million range when you get the DVR numbers in. I just don't see someone taking control of our Ideaspace through sheer force of Slashfic.

Sure, a lot of fanfic is crap. Of course it's crap. It's written by people who are not professional writers. If I paint, what I paint is crap. Does that mean I should give up painting and displaying stuff in my neighborhood art show?

3.) Is fanfic flattery? Again, depends on how you define flattery. If someone's writing fanfic with intention of currying favor for some ... er, frankly unguessable benefit, then they're really engaged in an exercise in futility. If you mean flattery as in: it's flattering to think someone is so entertained by our work that it inspires them to talk about it and create around it, then aces.

4.) Most writers and actors don't feel this way. Some, including writers I both like personally and greatly admire, hate the idea of fanfic.

Look, end of day, you should always be trying to create your own material. But fanfic, etc, is a different process than original creation -- which I think is the source of a lot of the controversy.

People who do original creations assume the fan is taking some sort of unearned ownership, somehow implying their act is the same/as difficult as the original act of creation. Which, of course, tees them off (doesn't tee me off, but I'm a very relaxed and often drunk guy).

And some fanfic humans are under the impression that creating fanfic is the same creative process as creating original material -- and are sometimes frustrated that they're not accorded the same respect as the original creators. That's also wrong. Fanfic to me is spiritually much closer to the fan-created music videos.

The basic rule I follow here is one I learned in stand-up comedy: Always punch UP. I am a relatively successful typing human whose words are physically produced using millions of dollars and is distributed nationally by a massive billion dollar corporation to millions of people. Exactly how is a free web page with a 1000 word story about Eliot and Hardison fighting a trans-dimensional incursion of Elves hurting my brand, exactly?

Tell you what -- if some fanfic writer is so good they manage to amass a million-person audience with their web-distributed free stories using my characters, I am going to consider that evolution in action and hire that bastard. Or, at the very least, urge them to go create their own show. But odds are it ain't gonna happen. And that's okay. We write for different reasons.

Wow, that response could be its own blog post. I may break it out later, and shine it a bit."

Interesting. At once sort of very common sense, but also sort of...snide about us people wasting our time and over-inflating ourselves instead of actually doing something real (and up, apparently). But the core is really here: We write for different reasons. Very much yes. Some might argue fanfic, writing done for nothing more than personal pleasure, might be more pure because of lack of interest in profit, etc. Or I could just be over-rationalizing. Heh. Because if there is one thing true of fanfic vs. original writing, it's that there is little to no risk in fanfic writing, where silence is often the most harsh criticism you will hear. And even then, no one begrudges your right to post whatever you want.

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I find it interesting that fanfic is considered to be that mutant cousin that lives in the attic who nobody talks about, yet something like this We can do it send up is proudly displayed as art. (and not saying there is anything wrong with these photos - I find them rather beautiful)

One could argue that since these were created by fans of the original artwork for their own pleasure, they are in the same vein as fanfic, but somehow it's legitimized.

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Yes, there is definitely a unique prejudice for written works for some reason. Creating what might be able to be considered "derivative" works in, say, the art world, is a valid and common practice. I'm not sure if with writing it is a matter of the extreme exceptions poisoning the well or such. (All fanfic is incestuous, graphic, multi-partner sex, with babies and telepathic poodles.) Always interesting to see where people feel the need to draw the line.

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Damn telepathic poodles ruining it for everyone!

Huh, really interesting! While it's not quite the full-throated affirmation that some of us would like, I find it rather encouraging that the newer generation of show-runners, etc. have a much more relaxed attitude toward fanfic.

Yeah, my first reaction was, "Hey, cool! He's totally fine with it!" And then I kept reading and something just started not sitting quite right. But, yes, even having his more relaxed if not accepting attitude is nice. Especially since it seemed like there was an implicit agreement by all people in the tv business pretending such a thing doesn't exist. Lol. (Plus, Hardison totally went through a fanfic phase. ;)

The first point is, to me, the main one; kinda nice to see it spoken.

The rest definitely comes across on the snobby side. Ready to admit that a lot of fanfic is crap.. but the original fiction that's crap is excused from spotlight by the act of creation? ummm. And fanfic will only be good if a million people read it? Ah well; what do I know.

Thank you for sharing, very interesting to read :)

Yeah, if he'd stopped at the first bit I would have been very happy. It's still a move in the right direction, even if a bit snide. Ha, and of course, when he made that remark about fanfics at the most having an audience of hundreds, I felt like sending him a link to something like dietcokechick's Barista series or something. Lol.

I guess snide is one of those human defense mechanisms that are hard to avoid, lol. and yeah, unless he multiplies his 'hundreds' by many 10s, that's just a little extra snidy

Agreed on your summary. Most people I know RL who are aware of fanfic hold similar-to-more-snide observations. I think a lot of it is about context and intent with a helping ego.

Script writers, when they are looking for jobs, write spec scripts. What is the hot new show out? Well, Leverage could actually be a candidate. Bones would be another good one. Possibly House. Mad Men definitely. I don't know what they're showing on network TV, but whatever is the top-rated show would be a good one.

Anyway, they write a script for the show. They take the characters, put them into a situation and spin a story. They take these spec scripts and hold them up: "Here is my work. Look. I can write this show. Look how awesome I am. I GET this. Hire me." (note: you don't send Bones to Bones. You send Leverage to Bones, or Mad Men. You'd send Mad Men or Leverage to Stargate. That's just the way it works. BSG may or may not be welcome because its in the same genre. I digress)

On the surface, it isn't too dissimilar to fanfic: You are using the characters and setting of a pre-existing work. Script writers tell stories that are often in a world not of their own origination since the showrunner can't write every script (Unless they're JMS and he didn't do all 5 years of B5)

The function and intent is different though and I think this is where the professional pride (and snideness) comes in with writers: They are doing this to show off their chops, that they know:
*The mechanics of how to structure a TV episode: Formatting, Set, costume and special effects requirements, They hit every beat, every scene turns- "I know my stuff and I know the reality of TV production: Hire me"
*They can write the tone and style of a show seamlessly, even if they aren't the originator "I can write this show: I could be writing your show. Hire me"
*That they can spin a story and wrap it up in 20/40 minutes: "I can bring something awesome to your writing staff: Hire me"
*that they know not to do any of the common mistakes: New characters, Guest actors, Upset the established status quo (ex: deaths, births, marriages), crazy sets, exotic locations or special effects etc. "I can play well with the ideas of others, I can make the prototypical episode of this series: Hire me."

effectively: I know how to do this for a living, I can do this for you, I will help you make money, I will be an asset to your writing team.

(shopping around Pilots is "Look I can do the mechanics and Look At My Cool World!!1 BUY IT! I can make more!")

this is a sign I wrote too much but I wrote it so I shall inflict it ;)

Most fanfic, and yes I have read and enjoyed exceptions, doesn't seek to tell a well crafted story that uses the characters, phrasing and patterns exactly as given in a way that intentionally meshes with the established canon. It's amateur, often not only in style and structure, but in intent. It's a fix it, or it is slash/het/girlslash that fulfills some desire to see something, or vehicle for a really-super-kee-o-neat-awesome-idea-that-I-had!!!! or for Smut, etc etc etc.

Some of it is a desire to produce more of the material that people liked in the original, and to make it as true to the original, or even better than the original! But I would argue that the majority of fanfic isn't in the latter category (ie. the hypothetical fan-produced script that gets a mission views and a job offer)

Most of it is "Kirk and Spock land on an Alien planet where the pheromones from the tree sap send Spock into Pon Farr" or "I am Rodney McKay's Sock Narrating a Story!!"*

it does happen that someone moves from Fan to Pro: Cassandra Claire did it (granted I wasn't a fan of her draco series and I haven't read her original stuff so I can't comment). I can think of a few fans that I know personally that if they wrote to the "rules" would be able to knock out some fab spec scripts that would get them looked at.

* This is where a lot of people I know think Fanfic is stupid. Though I do know one person who has flat out stated that he thinks it is "pointless" because it doesn't get them anything but street cred and takes up time they could be doing something else more productive: like writing original things that can get you published.

However another guy I know who has done Pro writing said that many MANY people write the fan stuff when they're getting their feet wet so to speak, because you can learn the mechanics of storytelling with the training wheels of using an established setting and characters where everyone reading it knows the rules already. The difference comes when you step outside that comfort zone.

I think the previous attitude has been either "you insult me to think you could do better" to "Put up or shut up"

It is very nice to see "Hey you like my stuff. Cool. Go ahead, you're not hurting me (but you're not helping yourself!)."

It's a step ;)

I liked that he acknowledged that writers aren't pros and that is Okay. "I may enjoy painting but I'm not going to be Picasso: does this lessen my enjoyment of painting?" kind of thing.
going back to earlier points, I think it is a legitimate training ground if treated as such. But if you're just there because it is *fun* why the hell not?

Yeah, the entry was nice in that it certainly represents a softer approach to fanfic by the people in charge, but still not quite accepting, if you know what I mean. I just want to hear someone say, "Hey, you know, it doesn't harm the original material, it's harmless fun that brings lots of people joy, so who the heck am I to judge?"

:)

*nod* that was super nice to see for once!

D'oh! the above is Lanna. Lanna just FAILS at switching LJ accts around.

Haha! Now I know your super sekrit LJ identity! ;p

Oh noes!!!!!!!11111eleventyone!

Heh was logged into a RP journal. RP which is slooooooow and needs more people to play :P

*jumps in, rec'ed from a comment on a post from

blueheronz who is going to speak about FF in a fiction-writing workshop)*

I completely agree with how you've put all this, so I won't quote your points back to you :)

Side note: this made me give more thought to the idea of writing a fanfic in script form. I realized I often mentally outline scenes as if they were scenes from the show, and not as if they were prose. Could be a really interesting exercise.

That's another point of disconnect for me, John Rogers sort of making it sound like fanfic writers are trying to be like him, trying to make TV shows, yet fanfic is rarely written in script format. Personally, I wouldn't even know where to begin. While I do have scenes in my head, my first instinct is still to describe them in prose. But I would say that someone writing scripts for existing shows is no different than all the other scriptwriters sending out spec scripts. It's much harder to find the professional/amateur line there, and maybe that, in the end, is what makes people like Rogers a little touchy or snide, as their paycheck is the one clear line they can draw.

Yeah, in the comments to the blog entry, a lot of people pointed out the fact that fanfic is not the unwanted step-child of tv, as fanfic has much more in common with novel and short-story media rather than scripts. So it's not like fanfic writers are trying to replace the show or be better than the scriptwriters, but instead are exploring the fictional world in another media.

But it's funny to me about all those speculative scripts, because in the sense of playing in other people's established worlds, script writing really is a lot like fanfic in intent, if not in format.

Fanfic with a strict set of rules *nods* and I think that's where the professional pride and scoffing part kicks in, because it's not too different, but it is? I guess it is more...Fanfic could easily be more serious and some people are threatened by that, some people HATE when other people use their ideas, and then others just don't get why anyone would do it as a hobby rather than something with a tangible benefit?

See, for me, it's the lack of tangible benefit that is my point of disconnect, because writing may not be a career for me, or ever have any inkling of finacial or critical gain for me, but I do get real, important, essential benefits from writing. If I was madly in love with golf and played that all the time as my hobby, no one would blink an eye, but because my form of recreation and personal joy is writing, it makes me someone laboring for nothing. I would ask if these people understand what writing can mean for people. I don't write to make money or get fame, I write because I just...have to. It's who I am. And I guess that is where my frustration comes in, these people telling me to try harder, play by the rules, or just shove off and stop writing.

*nodnodnod* I totally agree on the disconnect thing. Hell even a lot of the pros LOVE that they are entertaining people - sure the paycheck is nice, but the thing that drives them is the passion for the idea, the creation of it and, with many, the sharing of it. That isn't tangible, but it is a real benefit.

I think a lot of artistic pursuits suffer in this way, perhaps writing more than the visual things. In golf you have a score: there is a metric.

In art? well, there is a lot of opinion there, but there are rules (perspective works like this. color theory works like that) to follow and if you do, people hail! (and it is complicated by the fact that if you know the rules, you can break them and also be hailed as a genius. Sometimes.)

Writing is similar. there are rules "Do x to get people to feel/think y" Follow them and be hailed. ex: George Lucas and Star Wars = the hero's Journey. They can also be broken and you can be hailed as a genius! (sometimes). I think writing is more subtle which is why people cling to metrics harder "Are you published? How many copies did you sell? Were you optioned for movie rights? Why bother if you don't get something?"

Metrics totally ignore the emotional component :(

Yeah, I agree 100% with you here.

My dad is a published poet, novelist, and short story writer, who supported that habit by teaching Creative Writing at a university until he retired a few years back. He wrote - and still writes - for profit, for fame (although I doubt you would have heard of him in spite of his having published 4 novels), for posterity, and also for all of the reasons we do - to share, to try to shine small lights on bits of life and truth, to play with forms and explore feelings and ideas, to have fun doing something that brings a sense of joy and satisfaction.

I have a certain amount of training and aptitude for writing that is my birthright, but I have no particular desire to turn pro. For me the world of agents, advances, editors, and deadlines would be a buzz killer. But I enjoy writing, and I have always given bits of writing as gifts, much as I used to make Christmas presents back when I was younger and my desire to be bountiful outstripped my meager income. The internet serves as a way to share on a different scale. Using the familiar world of a fandom, with its limitations of character and circumstance is a nice and refreshing way to work around the ~~writer's block~~ blank-page-blank-mind syndrome that sometimes strikes me for original fic, and it poses puzzles that don't happen in original fic where I can just change the character or circumstances, because in my own little world, I am God.

Does this make me a bad writer? No, although I do have my faults as a writer, and am quite aware of most of them. Does it make me unproductive? No. This is what I do in my limited time off from being a wife/mother/swim instructor/volunteer/fitness enthusiast. He speaks of painting unprofitably but for fun. I write unprofitably but for fun, and share some of that on the off chance that I can give pleasure.

To me it seems in many ways more "art for art's sake" to be sharing simply to give pleasure or share a thought or feeling through words, rather than doing the same thing for profit or to gain a share of posterity through spreading my work to millions.

So, O Converted, did you enjoy the sermon?

Very interesting perspective, that of a professional writer's daughter. It is a rather mind-blowing shift in the world of writing in the last 100 years. It used to be that to get anyone to read your writing it would *have* to be professionally produced, but thank you internet, universal dispersal is now free. Behold the powers of the viral mind! :D

Yeah, and the world of the professional writer really does seem to have more than its fair share of buzz kills. The whole networking thing is a big scary monster to me. I prefer my tiny corner of the internets where people will seek me out if they feel like it. Lol.

Oh my, that golf analogy is really brilliant. I had never thought of it like that, but it's so true.

I was just thinking about this cousin I have who misses all sorts of family gatherings just to golf and I'm like, how is my fanfic writing habit really more pointless and lacking in "tangible benefits" than that? At least we create something. Lol.

A BILLIONTY TIMES THIS.

solidarity, sister :D

I would ask if these people understand what writing can mean for people. I don't write to make money or get fame, I write because I just...have to. It's who I am.

I'm with you there. I've had missing scenes and post-eps attack my brain mercilessly until I get them out because for me, they just HAVE to be written. It's about fulfilling the desires the original writers create in me.

Ha! One of the perils of turning on the writerly mind, it's often impossible to get it to shut up again. Lol.

Yeah, I would hope this driving need to write post-eps and snippets would make creators realize their product has touched us. It takes a rare show to kidnap the fannish brain! :)

doing anything fannish, whether it be art, fic, vidding, etc. is strange to people who aren't in it. i just spent close to a month working on a painting for a big bang fest and i had a rl friend ask why i bothered, if i'm not getting paid. *shakes head*

the problem with fic is there a lot of bad fic out there and fans who aren't in fandom think it's all like that. there are some fanfic writers i prefer to read over certain published authors. i'd be really surprised to hear any producer types be in favour of it. there's all sorts of legalities there that they'd rather avoid.

You should find out what your rl friend does for hobbies and personal entertainment and ask her why she bothers if she's not getting paid to scrap book/bird watch/play tennis/whatever. Lol.

Yes, there is a lot of astonishingly bad fic. And maybe that is all people see. But I have to admit, I have picked up some astonishingly bad novels at the bookstore lately. So, yeah. But being published is like getting some stamp of approval or legitimacy, so who cares about quality? *shrug*

Interesting indeed.

I didn't actually interpret snide so much as a bluntly stereotypical perception of fanfic covered with 'but I'm cool with it', and 'it is flattering' disclaimers.

Perception #1: Fanfic is crap in terms of quality because it isn't written by professional writers (to be fair he started with the qualifier 'a lot' before painting it all as crap).

Not all fanfic is crap. And there are certainly fanfic authors who I consider better than published original authors in terms of their writing ability.

Yes, there are a lot of fics out there that don't make the grade in terms of quality reading (and I include some of my own in that) which I will concede fall into being crap because either the writer doesn't take a professional or qualitive approach to their writing, or the idea just isn't strong enough.

Perception #2: Fanfic is diminished in creative value because it isn't wholly original (and everyone should be original).

I will agree with him that it's a *different* process in terms of creation.

But who should say which creation holds more intrinsic creative value? At the end of the day, writing is art whether it is derivative or completely original, and art is subjective.

I can understand why the original creators get feathers ruffled over the idea that someone may believe that a fanfic story holds the same intrinsic creative value as their own work. But I've read some fanfic stories that have given me more pleasure than episodes of the show; there are stories I return to time and again because I enjoy them and they give me pleasure. I don't make a distinction between these and the episodes I rewatch endlessly.

Do I believe a fanfic author should be afforded the same respect as an original creator? If the quality of the output matches the original then yes, insomuch as I believe fanfic shouldn't be diminished in creative value because of it's derivative nature (ie I don't think the same level of respect as shown to a commissioned author of Stargate books is out of order for a fanfic author of a fantastically good quality story). However, certainly, I don't expect fanfic authors to be accorded the same *rights* in terms of payment or ownership - these should belong to the original creator quite rightly.

Perception #3: Professionals are better

I interpreted the 'punch up' thing as a blunt statement that he doesn't see the point of making fun of people below him in the food chain. After all, a fanfic writer doesn't get paid, doesn't get the same stage with the same size audience as an original creator so there's no real direct competition - the original creator is on a different playing field in a different galaxy compared to the fanfic writer.

And fair enough...that is true.

What I take exception to is the underlying suggestion that the different playing fields equate to quality of product across the board. There's a lot of crap equally churned out by professionals - someone is just fool enough to pay them for it.

---

Overall, I think fanfic is on an evolutionary path. Producers are more willing to accept it's a sign of a popular show. Many more scriptwriters and published authors are admitting that they dabbled/did their training in fanfic before becoming 'professional'. Perhaps fanfic will one day be considered a valid *amateur* league with the best of the best having the ability to turn *professional* in the same way sporting leagues operate. I can hope.

Edited Date: 2009-08-26 10:18 am (UTC)

It may just be the collapsing distinctions that is making the pros so twitchy. The evolution of media in general is making it easier for an amateur to get their work out there, and tv has long been a dying art. It's going to evolve or die off, and I think things like Sanctuary and shortened two-seasons-a-year type stuff make that very clear that something is already happening in the tv realm.

And yes to Rogers' post, as seemingly supportive (or at least ambivalent) still does reinforce the perceptions of fanfic, like we are all writing pedophilia Harry/Snape explicit fic. Of course, there's that rule (whose name escapes me) that claims that 90% of everything is crap. Professional or amateur realm. (And now that I have written it, is there really an amateur realm in writing? How many "legitimate" places are there to share writing without getting paid and publishing it? FANFIC, that's where! By definition, fanfic precludes payment. We should rename it amateur writing. Lol.)

Yay for a creator who isn't so against us.

Though I still get annoyed every time people say fanfic isn't good for anything. Ignoring the fact that I enjoy writing and reading of it and all the amazing people I've met through it, just as valuable as any other hobby...it does teach.

My writing ability has increased a TON since I started ficcing. My grammar and punctuation are better, my ability to express myself with the written word for professional reasons is way better, and I'm even better at expressing myself verbally because of my improved command of language.

Maybe I'm not making money with my fic, but monetary value isn't the only form of value out there.

Yes, my reaction to Rogers' post was rather two sided as well (almost ambivalent as his post in the first place). I like that he didn't come out against it, but it's almost funny to me that he still felt the need to basically say, "Sure, fanfic is fine, good sign of a healthy show, it's just useless for people to put so much time into it!"

I am with you. My writing and general ability to discuss, make a point, all of this has vastly improved. I would have to say that all I know about writing I learned from fandom. I only wish I had gotten involved before I slugged through Grad school. Lol. It would have been a lot easier (other than the distraction of reading fanfic getting me behind on my work, ;)

monetary value isn't the only form of value out there.

I dunno. That sounds like squishy socialist thinking to me. ;P

So, I wonder what he thinks of professional authors who write those novelizations of TV shows. Are they 'punching UP'? Or are they sort of wasting their time?

I like his thoughts that fanfic means a healthy show. On the other hand, I always feel a little... fury from people like him. (Not so much him as, well, every other writer who's answered this question.) And I always kind of get a threatened/jealous vibe from them that maybe someone might be doing it better and NOT being paid. OR, that how DARE regular people attempt to call themselves a writer and write fanfic when they aren't ANYTHING like a REAL writer. Like, we're all diluting the status of their PRO rank. Or something. Hmm.

Maybe they are just jealous of the joy we've found without the need of putting up with all the political/economic bullshit surrounding the making of a tv show. Lol. I also think Rogers is trying to peg fanfic as the unwanted stepchild of screenwriting, which, personally, couldn't be further from the truth. I don't think in scripts, I don't write in script form, the fanfic I write is impossible on the screen, and that's one of the reasons I write it, to fill in what we can't get from the show, such as character exploration, drawn out psychological romance, giant space operas without limitations of budget, only imagination.

I'm thinking maybe it is the collapsing realms of media that is making them so twitchy. TV is changing, the internet the rising star, and when there can be no other distinction between products other than "we get paid" they understandably cling to that like whoa. Or they just think we are dweebs. One of those. ;)

...fanfic is like fanvids? Oh, fail.

Different mediums. Fanfic tells stories. Fanvids can tell stories, but are frequently just a bunch of random images smashed together to 'My Immortal'.

Also, pro writers are heavily derivative (and Cassie Clare filed the numbers off her fanfic and got published, but of course, she had fans who would buy her drivel, so they liked her), and frequently unoriginal and complete shit.

/thoughts on yaoi.

A fanfic that is like a fanvid would have to be those fics where they just take actual dialog from the show and sort of piece it together (I hate those fics.) though most awesome fanvids take a hell of a lot more effort.

Yeah, it's pretty easy to point out a hell of a lot of crap that people got paid for. I get way more pissed when a printed novel I read sucks, because I had to pay for that shit! (Or there was at least the assumption I would pay for it, even if I just paperback exchanged the sucker.)